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Lindakron
Sweet Inspiration
Canada
2674 Posts |
 Posted - 12/04/2007 : 02:21:34
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I know religion and spirituality is always a sensitive and heated topic, so I wasn't sure if I should post this topic. But my curiosity has been burning like mad, and I really am interested in feedback! Please, please don't start a war over this!!
I can really identify with Dusty because she was Catholic. And, like Dusty, in that context, I also have a history of cutting, alcoholism, and I'm bisexual. However, in the year 2007, sociological and philosophical constraints are not as impeding, and I'm able to still consider myself an active Catholic (I'm a friggin' reader and sunday school teacher for pete's sake  ) despite those once-scandalous 'titles'. It's much easier now to scrap the crap of the doctrine and just focus on the sacraments like baptism, communion and confession, which, for me, are still relevant and meaningful.
What I am pondering is, do you think Dusty gave up her Catholic faith because her sexual orientation, etc, was unacceptable to the church, or do you think it was because she was so damn busy on the road and couldn't maintain her stance as a "practicing catholic"? It sounds to me that she was quite spiritually experimental in the latter years, as I also am, but I just wonder if she ever really gave up her Catholic identity, or if she just added to it. My impression is that she couldn't continue her Catholicity because her life and identity didn't jive with the teachings of the church, but I do think it's possible that it boiled down to the fact that she had no time to attend mass. I really don't know what happened there. Any thoughts?
I hope this thread is ok. 
~Linda~
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furtivenudist
Wishing And Hoping
182 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 04:55:48
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In the RAH interview Pat Rhodes is quite convinced that it was the church that made Dusty crazy. She adds that religion has to keep you down in order to control you and I think she's absolutely right.
The most fortunate thing that ever happened to me is that both my parents were atheists (mother Catholic, father Jewish), but they did send me to a Church of England school when I was five. One day I came back from school and asked "Who is this God they keep on about? And why is he watching me ALL the time?". My mother was stirring the soup on the stove, she paused and said "Oh, that's a fairy tale like Alice in Wonderland. But you should know about these things" and she went back to her soup that was that.
Boy, was I relieved to get my privacy back.
I have no idea why educated people in 21st century believe in a benevolent being that intercedes on their behalf - unreliably, I might add.
What has religion given you? Guilt. Think about it. If you'd been born to atheists you'd be foot loose and fancy free, instead of indulging yourself in visions of hell and damnation. These catholics really know how to sell their product, crucifixtion and all. Not exactly a cheerful religion, praying to a guy nailed to a cross.
Now what if you let it all go?
Julia Sweeney of Saturday Night Live has a DVD out about her journey from being a Catholic to an atheist. I haven't seen it, but she discussed it on numerous talk shows and she was very eloquent and funny. Not believing in God in America? Housewives all over were dropping their last ovaries in shock. That Julia is very brave. And she also has a DVD of her one-woman show about surviving cancer. So obviously she put her faith in medicine, not religion.
It's not god who created man, but man who created god. Puzzling phenomena like solar eclipses had to be attributed to something, otherwise the world was too bewildering - then the priests came with a handy explanation. It's all smoke and mirrors.
Sorry, but God made me an atheist.
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Carole R.
Higher and Higher
United Kingdom
13251 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 10:02:04
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Well, without referring to any Dusty quotes on this topic.. (I will later)..
My impression , and thats ALL thats it is , has always been that Dusty was guilt ridden most of her life.
I believe that her strict Catholic upbringing was mainly responsible for this...
Yes, in the year 2007 people are more tolerant about things in general, or, we are led to believe that they are.
However, Dusty had low self esteem anyway, brought on by her parents obvious preference for her older brother.
The possession of low self esteem,leads to finding reasons why you are not good enough etc...
Dustys sexuality, in my view, would have been a massive burden to carry in those days...
..and she would have felt guilty at not conforming with the accepted way of life.
She was a conscientious person who WANTED to be perfect,that is obvious from her musical work..
To answer your question, Linda, I think that Dusty ended up being a lapsed Catholic because of her lifestyle in general.
I also think that she retained her belief in God,but couldn't take what she felt were the restrictions of the Catholic church.
Note; Her funeral did NOT take place at a Catholic Church.
St. Mary The Virgin is a traditional Church Of England.
This is an extremely complex topic..and,is open to interpretation. Alot of our discussion can only be conjecture.
It's interesting to read peoples views.
I hope that its possible to discuss this, WITHOUT upsetting anyone.
I'm sure that it is..
Carole xx |
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Lindakron
Sweet Inspiration
Canada
2674 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 11:52:41
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I wonder, too, if there was as much tolerance back then, if she'd not have been as neurotic. I'm perfectly comfortable as I am, but Dusty was not, unfortunately. I think it's sad. Kind of like unrequited spirituality, lol.
Interesting feedback so far, thank you!
~Linda~
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Lindakron
Sweet Inspiration
Canada
2674 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 12:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by furtivenudist
In the RAH interview Pat Rhodes is quite convinced that it was the church that made Dusty crazy.
I love how she prefaced her thought by saying, "I should probably be shot for this..." 
Pat was lovely in the interview.
~Linda~
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Pablito
Wishing And Hoping
Ireland
465 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 20:15:17
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Note; Her funeral did NOT take place at a Catholic Church.
St. Mary The Virgin is a traditional Church Of England.
I never knew that. Thanks for the info Carole. In my opinion, the Anglican Church (in England & Ireland anyway), seem more tolerant of people's differences - from an ex-Catholic perspective.
Regards Dusty, I'd say it's the easiest thing to become a lapsed Catholic (or any religion), but I think fewer people let go of all their religious 'sensibilities' and become truly aetheist. Mainly because the way religion is taught - ie. to children, when people are at their most impressionable. Religion was taught in a much more pacific way when I was at school - but even so, there are times when the things I was taught at school (in the 1980's) come back to 'haunt' me - so i can only imagine how those things affected Dusty, considering that she was at school in the 40's/50's.
I wonder if Lee Everett (wife of Kenny) had any influence over Dusty in her later years - she's a 'healer' isn't she?
I think what attracted many people to Catholicism was the notion of Confession - especially to people who had to keep part of the their life private - for whatever reason, so Confession gave people an outlet to un-burden themselves about something which they felt they couldn't talk about to anyone else. I don't know how Dusty felt about that.
Paul. |
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Sara
Higher and Higher
United Kingdom
9075 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 21:57:27
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I just think it must have been so, so hard for her
And I'm not sure she ever really accepted her sexuality, if you look at interviews in the 90s she was still going out of her way to cover it up, and I don't blame her either.
Sara x |
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Lindakron
Sweet Inspiration
Canada
2674 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 22:36:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Sara
I just think it must have been so, so hard for her
And I'm not sure she ever really accepted her sexuality, if you look at interviews in the 90s she was still going out of her way to cover it up, and I don't blame her either.
Sara x
I know. If she was more outspoken about her sexuality, the media would be all over it and people would stop hearing the music and just think about her in terms of her private life.  I have issues with that. 
I really appreciate the feedback. I identify so much with Dusty, so I'm fascinated as to why I'm still Catholic and she wasn't, as it was supposedly so important to her. Times have changed.
~Linda~
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sparkie
Wishing And Hoping
United Kingdom
527 Posts |
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Carole R.
Higher and Higher
United Kingdom
13251 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 23:48:55
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Thanks for that Sparks... too much reading to take in at one sitting!..
..I'll read the rest tomorrow.
Loved the Reputation vid!
Ta,
Carole xx |
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Sara
Higher and Higher
United Kingdom
9075 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 23:57:02
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Thanks for that, Sparkie.
I'm not religious at all, and it's hard for me to see why people would want to be part of something that will never accept part of who they are.. but it's not something I know a lot about to be able to say that really
Sara x
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furtivenudist
Wishing And Hoping
182 Posts |
Posted - 13/04/2007 : 02:43:25
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It has been widely accepted that Cliff Richard is gay and it hasn't hurt his career one iota. And Britain persecuted gay men, not women. The Royal Family socialized with gays, employed them and probably slept with them too.
Possibly being gay just didn't sit well with Dusty, more so than any religious issues. When I lived in Greenwich Village in the 80s and 90s, I would visit a piano bar if I ever felt in the dumps and I would soon cheer up. Gay men have been a big support system for me. I had a mutual friend with Dusty then and it was impossible to get her to go anywhere - my friend gave up.
New York was really happening in the 80s and 90s - it was impossible to be lonely. But Dusty didn't want to be part of any scene. So why be in New York and not partake? Why stay home? I saw Liza Minnelli drop into piano bars at 3 am, Connie Francis and many others. I once saw Princess Anne's husband get up and sing.
If Dusty had partaken, she would've been embraced. But I guess she was reclusive on top of everything else. If she didn't want to go out as Dusty, she should've gone as Mary.
By that time nobody gave a toss whether you were straight, gay or into animals. But we sure did party.
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sparkie
Wishing And Hoping
United Kingdom
527 Posts |
Posted - 13/04/2007 : 20:12:45
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quote:
Originally posted by furtivenudist
I once saw Princess Anne's husband get up and sing.
I bet that made for an interesting event!!
quote:
If Dusty had partaken, she would've been embraced. By that time nobody gave a toss whether you were straight, gay or into animals.
I have to agree! I think it's a shame that even in her later life she still shut herself away from what I'm sure would have been a very accepting public with regards to her sexuality. Many other 'stars' were being more open about their lives and yes, as stated by furtivenudist, nobody was overly bothered anymore because being gay or bisexual was becoming more and more acceptable to the majority of people.
Maybe even as she got older she was still worried about how people would view her and react to her if she was totally open? Would she have been concerned that people wouldn't love her anymore? As her career got another kick-start from the PSBs did she think that being open would have stopped it in it's tracks? Would she have been any happier if she HAD been open? Maybe she felt safer keeping herself to herself? Insecurity can be such a soul destroying thing.
Though if she wasn't 100% at ease with who she was and with the lifestyle then I don't suppose anyone could have said or done anything to have changed her mind on being a tad reclusive!!! Nobody will ever know what was going on in her head I suppose but I feel that she wasn't happy with who and what she was all through her life and that I find so very sad because if she had been happy with herself I believe she would have had a better time of it... she may have even settled down in a secure relationship instead of stumbling from one disaster to another.
Who knows... I'm just speculating (and waffling - probably a load of old rope too so I'll go hide behind the sofa and wait for the low flying empty beer cans to pass!!! ). I do know however that you can't make someone do something if they're not comfortable with it.
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treking
Wasn't Born To Follow
United Kingdom
5586 Posts |
Posted - 13/04/2007 : 23:06:47
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I agree with all you say Sparkie in your last comments.
Trek
We are here for Dusty. |
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Sara
Higher and Higher
United Kingdom
9075 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2007 : 00:04:02
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I don't..
She didn't want to be known as "that gay singer". I still don't blame her. She wouldn't have been accepted by everyone and she knew it
There will always be ignorant people everywhere, teaching it to their children.. It maybe easier now than it once was, but I don't think it'll ever be really "acceptable".
Sara x |
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furtivenudist
Wishing And Hoping
182 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2007 : 00:43:28
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I agree with Sparkie - well put.
But I don't think it necessary for public figures to declare their sexuality. Lily Tomlin has been living openly with her partner for donkeys years - nobody cares, nobody asks, nobody's hiding anything.
But when you're terrified of being "found out" (and there are some major American movie stars still masquerading - OK, if you're an action hero making $200 million movies, there might be too much at stake), that's when life becomes hell.
You start associating with seedy people, because you think that's all you're entitled to. Look at all the lawsuits when Rock Hudson and Liberace died - why would you be with a greedy low life to begin with?
Dusty also didn't want her stays in mental institutions made public.
Sometimes you're born with an incredible talent and that's all you're known for. And then you have a duty to maintain that talent and for some people it's just too much. At least Dusty didn't self-destruct like Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jusy Garland and countless others. |
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Lindakron
Sweet Inspiration
Canada
2674 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2007 : 00:50:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sparkie
I read this a while back - don't know if it is at all relevant to the discussion but just thought I'd post the link anyway :
http://thewildreed.blogspot.com/2006/06/soul-deep.html
That was a fantastic link! Thanks.
~Linda~
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Lindakron
Sweet Inspiration
Canada
2674 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2007 : 00:58:37
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quote:
Originally posted by furtivenudist
But when you're terrified of being "found out" (and there are some major American movie stars still masquerading - OK, if you're an action hero making $200 million movies, there might be too much at stake), that's when life becomes hell.
Interesting thought. I didn't think she was terrified of being found out. Didn't she kind of clue the public in, or does it just take one to know one? I really thought Dusty was more overt about her sexuality than she apparently was. Maybe it's because I'm a latecomer fan, and the bigger picture is available.
I think it's sad, if in fact it was true that she wasn't comfortable with who she was as a sexual person. I wonder if that was because of her career, or was it because of her religous belief? Or both? Anyone?
I'm breaking out the popcorn and settling into this thread. Thanks.
~Linda~
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Lindakron
Sweet Inspiration
Canada
2674 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2007 : 01:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Sara
Thanks for that, Sparkie.
I'm not religious at all, and it's hard for me to see why people would want to be part of something that will never accept part of who they are.. but it's not something I know a lot about to be able to say that really
Sara x
I know what you mean, but in the end I'm passionate about the sacraments. I can ditch the crap, but I can't ever leave the sacraments. It may be interesting to note that I wasn't born or raised Catholic, but I just really dug the way the sacraments connected people to God. So I signed up about five years ago because it makes me more complete. I just plug my ears when it comes to doctrine. I suppose it may come across as hypocritical, but so be it. I don't have to justify my faith to anyone, just as I don't have to justify my sexuality. I am me.
~Linda~
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sparkie
Wishing And Hoping
United Kingdom
527 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2007 : 01:20:04
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I don't think anybody is ever accepted by 'everyone' be they gay, straight, black, white, Catholic, Jewish, tall, short, overweight, underweight etc. someone will always have a problem with something but I think many people in the late 80s/early 90s wouldn't have been quite so concerned about it as they would have been in the 60s, when they probably would have nailed her down with the "gay singer" reference, but would have hopefully let her voice and talent stand on their own merit.
Attitudes have changed over the years but I agree with you that there are many ignorant people out there in this world who dislike others who are different from the 'ideal' set out by their God in religious teachings which, as far as I can see, only serve to encourage some to take things to the extreme... good examples being the Phelps family in Kansas and Aaron McKinney & Russell Henderson in Wyoming!
I suppose it's all in a way irrelevant now as she no longer has that burden to weigh her down and if she had done things differently would we have been denied her wonderful talent and the musical legacy she left us? I guess the way I look at it now is Dusty lived her life as she wanted to live it and made her own decisions accordingly and I respect her for having done so after all we only get one time around right?! She may not have always made the right decisions in peoples' opinions but who does????
I think I better leave it at that and say no more before I end up getting myself into trouble... I seem to be good at that sometimes! 
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Lindakron
Sweet Inspiration
Canada
2674 Posts |
Posted - 14/04/2007 : 02:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by sparkie
I agree with you that there are many ignorant people out there in this world who dislike others who are different from the 'ideal' set out by their God in religious teachings which, as far as I can see, only serve to encourage some to take things to the extreme... good examples being the Phelps family in Kansas and Aaron McKinney & Russell Henderson in Wyoming!
I totally agree. A bible in one hand and a gun in the other??? How awful and wrong!!! I don't subscribe to that kind of spirituality.
quote:
I think I better leave it at that and say no more before I end up getting myself into trouble... I seem to be good at that sometimes!
Aww. Me too. I always start riots.
~Linda~
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